26-0128wc Transcript

(0:04) Okay, this is a video. It’s the follow-up to the engagement project and it’s a (0:13) question-answer between Del Tackett and his 10 students who went through the (0:19) engagement project with him. So we’ll go through the first 27-28 minutes of it (0:26) and then we’ll do the second half next week.

And here we go. (0:43) Okay, my friends, we have finished the engagement project, all 10 tours. And (0:52) again, I can’t tell you what a delight it was for me to have the opportunity to go (0:58) through this with you.

And I would be more than happy to take you on tours (1:06) again anytime you want to. Who knows, it may be long before you’ll have to take (1:11) me on a tour. What we want to do now is to just spend some time reflecting on (1:19) what God has said to us.

Not me, but what has God said to us. We’ve looked at a lot. (1:30) We had a good opportunity after each tour to stop and think about what has (1:34) struck us, but now we want to sit back and think about everything that we’ve (1:39) gone through and to ask the question, what has God done here? What has he (1:49) done in my life or what am I feeling like he’s doing? Because it may not be a (1:53) finished product.

It’s not with me, I know that. What is he doing? So this is (1:59) your time and if there are still some lingering questions that you want to (2:06) bring up, it may be possible that Nancy has an answer or Hector has an answer. (2:14) That’s okay.

This is our small group discussion time. So I’ll just turn (2:21) that over to you. Going back to the vision of engaging, I think you had in (2:32) there our Jerusalem.

Can you explain what you mean by our Jerusalem? And I’m just (2:40) thinking in terms of, you know, that city has a very specific meaning to (2:46) people in the Middle East, for example. Yeah, that has been used repeatedly for a (2:55) long, long time in the Christian concept of what Jesus said in Acts 117, 118. When (3:06) he called his disciples, he said that you were going to be my witnesses and (3:13) that you were going to start in Jerusalem and then go to Judea and to the (3:19) uttermost parts of the world.

And so that has been used by Christians a long, long (3:27) time to then apply what Jesus was saying to those disciples to us where we are. (3:35) God wants us to do the same thing. He wants us to start in our Jerusalem.

That (3:41) will move to the outer Judea and then to the uttermost parts of the world. So (3:48) that’s how we’re using it there. It is not referring to the Jerusalem (3:54) in Israel.

It’s referring to where we are. And to some extent, that is what we (4:01) understand Jesus was saying to them. You know, I want you to be my witnesses and (4:08) I want you to start here and then that will move out and that will go to the (4:14) uttermost parts of the earth.

Remember, that’s exactly what we were talking about, (4:16) right? That’s how God works, right? He starts with a little plant and that (4:21) little plant has seeds, the tree has seeds, that moves outward and that moves (4:26) outward. So that’s that same, the same principle. That’s what we’re referring to (4:30) there.

Good question. Dr. Tackett, as far as something that struck me, and there (4:37) have been so many things that have struck me, but I would say two, the two (4:42) that are at the forefront of my mind are the triune nature of the Lord that (4:47) dwells within us, you know, and in the sense that I had always before thought (4:50) of, you know, it’s just the Holy Spirit, but it’s the Father, it’s the Son, it’s (4:54) the Holy Spirit, it’s the fullness of God. And I think that was mind-blowing to me (4:59) and what, how that comforted me in terms of I am equipped to do what he’s called (5:04) me to do.

So I think that was one thing. The other thing was the obstacle to that, (5:11) which, or one of the obstacles was, you know, the self-centeredness aspect of it (5:15) and realizing if you do away with yourself, there’s so much freedom in that, (5:22) you know, and when you start to focus on others, you’re no longer trapped by, well (5:27) my script says this, and so if it doesn’t go this way, then the whole world (5:31) is, you know, kind of just deteriorating as a result. So I was grateful for those (5:37) those two things among the hundreds of other things that struck me, but yeah.

(5:41) Well, you know, Catherine, that first concept, that God dwells within us, and (5:49) that’s why we went through that, because the Scripture tells us, right, you know, (5:54) when Jesus said, you know, that the Father and I will come and make our abode in (6:00) you, and then of course we know that the Holy Spirit comes in us, and to some (6:05) extent, I remember when I first started thinking about it, I said, well, duh. I mean, you know, we (6:10) don’t serve three separate gods, you know, and it’s not like, okay, the Holy Spirit’s (6:15) over here and the Father’s over there, and no, that splits him apart. And so that (6:21) has struck me, as well.

It continues to strike me, and I’m not struck enough (6:27) by it, because I don’t really understand that. And I’ll be honest with you, I (6:35) don’t know that I truly believe it, because if I truly believed it, I think (6:39) my life would be different than it is right now, and that’s why we have to tell (6:43) ourself the truth, and that goes back to, remember the diagram we were trying to, (6:48) you know, in our finite way to talk about the heart and mind, you know, what would (6:54) change how I act and how I feel? Well, it’s believing the truth of God, and the (7:03) Holy Spirit has to help in that, and the Holy Spirit works through other people. (7:08) That’s why we need each other, and that’s something we have to remind (7:14) ourselves, and I have to do that, as well.

Almost like a daily thing, I have to get (7:18) up and thank God that somehow, for whatever reason, He has chosen to take up (7:24) a bode in me. I mean, really, honestly, we can say it right now, and I’m still not (7:30) sure I can believe that God Himself dwells within me. So yeah, I, that, boy, if that (7:36) doesn’t strike all of us, then, you know, maybe we’re a little too dense.

So, you (7:44) know, thank you by that. So, yes. Well, something that struck me was the (7:52) balance between truth and love, and yeah, that was just an eye-opener, that truth (7:59) on its own is insufficient, and love on its own is insufficient, and how we have (8:03) to really just follow the Holy Spirit’s prompting as He leads us to the valley (8:09) we’re supposed to.

And that was just an eye-opener, and how the other thing is the (8:16) chesed love of God, and how amazing that is, and our role as Christians to show (8:23) people that, you know, to be His ambassadors to a world that desperately (8:28) needs the chesed love of God. Don’t you love the way Nancy says that word? I was going to say it again. (8:37) We all wish we could say it that way.

Okay, Nancy, so let me ask you this question about the way (8:47) that truth and love are woven together, and I’m convinced of that. They’re an (8:53) inseparable thing, and you can’t even really think about one without the other (8:59) to some extent. You know, we can, but in an operation, in an action, obviously they (9:06) go together, that’s what the Scripture says.

So tell me a little bit about what (9:13) you think is the reason why we have a tendency to go one way or the other in (9:20) these. Well, I tend to focus more on the truth aspect of it, and I think when I do (9:30) that, it’s more about me and my script wanting to come across and, you know, feel (9:37) good, feel smart, and to have people think I’m smart, and I have, you know, I don’t. (9:41) Sometimes I like to feel like I have the right answers and just the right (9:44) arguments, but I don’t.

I’m finite. So it’s, again, all about my script and being, you (9:52) know, stuck in my script, and that’s horrible. And then if we go to the (9:57) extreme of love, I think it’s, if we define love in the right way, we won’t be (10:03) stuck in that, but if we define love as just this, you know, like you said, just (10:07) this feely thing, the superficial love, then it can sound easier that we’re just (10:13) stuck in that, rather than offering the true, pleasant love of God, and I think (10:19) that was God’s truth.

You know, even as you say that, I am, I guess, reminded and (10:30) convicted how I feel I am the same way. I have a tendency, and I think, quite frankly, (10:36) most, probably the majority of what we’ll call evangelical Christians would lean (10:43) that way, my guess is. But I’ve been in situations where you are around people (10:50) that you know, think totally differently, and the pull to just want to be accepted (11:04) there, and a part of the, you know, holding a hand and, you know, you don’t want to be (11:10) on the mountain with everybody holding hands and singing, you know, love the (11:16) world, and then you stand there like, you know, right? It’s just, yeah, I don’t want (11:19) to be that.

I want to be part of this love gush kind of thing. I feel that as (11:26) well. I really do.

And, you know, that’s the pull. That’s the pull. But again, we go (11:34) back and we go through the truth as you expressed as well, so.

Good, yeah, those (11:40) are realities. Those are realities of our walk. Tell all those one another’s that (11:46) you listed, love one another, forgive one another, bear with one another.

I would (11:50) like to get those slides. But can you maybe sharpen that a little bit for me? (11:58) Like, are we doing that with other believers? Are we also extending that type (12:03) of love to our neighbors? Like, who are the one another’s for? Yeah, it’s really a (12:09) good question. We probably didn’t make that clear enough in our tour, and you (12:16) will get all the slides.

But this one another, if we look at the Scripture in (12:23) the way this is used, and all remember all of those verses we had where that (12:30) phrase is used, love one another, love one another, this is your command to love (12:33) one another. It is abundantly clear that this is believers. When Jesus said, the (12:42) world will know that the Father has sent me because of your love for one another, (12:48) that is a clear picture of us, the family of God, and our love for one (12:54) another.

This is not, remember in C. H. Lewis’s capital H, humanity. This is not a (13:02) capital O, capital A, one another, where we just love, you know, love everybody. (13:09) This is for us.

And so that was what led us to talk about how do you do that? If (13:19) you look at all of the descriptions of that, admonish one another, pray for one (13:25) another, all of those are family things that God is calling us to do, and we (13:34) can’t do that in a broad way. We just can’t. It is impossible for us.

And then we (13:40) were referred to Jesus, who, you know, Jesus, the Son of God, God himself walking on the (13:46) earth, was bound in the physical world. He got hungry, he bled, and he was finite, (13:57) and he poured himself into those three people. I think that’s an example for us (14:00) as well, you know, that we have to realize the world will constantly, I’ll repeat (14:05) this again, the world will constantly pull you, your flesh will pull you to (14:11) think it’s got to be big.

And as soon as you start thinking of that, then you open (14:17) up your script and look if it’s not based upon a promise of you being (14:20) significant. And I know we could have a pious thing there as well, you know, well (14:25) no, I just want, I just want a lot of people to know Jesus. Of course we want (14:31) that, but in terms of loving one another, for example, you can’t do it.

You just (14:38) can’t have that kind of a deep relationship unless it’s a small number (14:42) of people. So all of those commands to love one another are about the body of (14:51) Christ and the family of God, and our call for our own good to be involved in (14:58) that kind of a deep relationship with another believer. Loving our neighbor, our (15:06) people that can be believers, or they can be unbelievers, or they could be (15:13) hostile, you know, they can, they can be the person that actually hates God, hates (15:20) Christians, they can be an agnostic, they can be a Mrs. Smith across the (15:27) street, or they could be a nominal Christian, or a Christian, you know, (15:34) sometimes people call it an Easter Christmas Christian, you know, they put (15:40) the lights up on Christmas, but there is no real life in there.

Those (15:47) are the people that God has providentially placed around us, so (15:51) there’s a clear distinction here. Does that help make that distinction? It’s a (15:56) great, great question, and when we need to make clear with people, and I, and again, (16:02) I just want to encourage you to consider in wherever you are in your (16:11) stage of life, and I know that will make a little bit of a difference, but (16:16) wherever you are in your stage of life, to realize God wants you to be in these (16:23) deep relationships with brothers and sisters in Christ, and seek it, seek that, (16:30) and commit to it, pursue it, and ask him for it. The idea of fruitfulness, the (16:41) three types of fruitfulness, I would just like to hear more, are those independent (16:50) of each other for each individual? You know, like for example, the Apostle Paul (16:55) wasn’t able to, or Jesus for that matter, did not have fruitfulness of the womb, or (17:00) I think of single people or, you know, so just wanted to hear more on that.

Yeah, (17:08) remember we talked about the Scripture lays out three fundamental areas where (17:15) we as human beings are to flourish, and one was to flourish physically. You know, (17:27) Adam and Eve were brought together. Malachi says that he desires them to be (17:34) one.

Why? Because he seeks godly offspring. Okay, none of that basic design has (17:41) changed. That is still there, and I’ll come back to that, because that I think (17:47) is the heart of your question, and then the second was that we are to be (17:51) fruitful vocationally.

Adam was placed in the garden, and they were then (17:58) called to physically flourish vocationally. In that case, it was (18:05) agriculture-wise and so forth. In our case today, we have a myriad of vocations (18:11) that people are involved in, and we should seek those vocations that (18:16) actually bring forth fruit.

There are vocations that don’t bring forth fruit. (18:24) In fact, there are vocations that actually suck the fruit out of other (18:27) people, and I believe as a Christian you need to be wary of those, but we are (18:33) to be fruitful vocationally, and the third one, remember we said that we, (18:38) all of us, are to be fruitful ministerially, and of course that’s what (18:43) we talked about in the royal law, right? That it’s an amazing thing if God hasn’t (18:47) entrusted the primary work of the kingdom to us ministerially. So the question (18:54) that I think you’re seeking there is a question that centers around the notion (19:03) of singleness, and I will give you my perspective on it, and for those of you (19:11) who’ve been in my class at the Institute, we may or not have gone through this.

It (19:15) came up a lot because there is a generation now, different than most (19:22) every generation before us, that now has moved from the position where singleness (19:29) was a calling now to the notion that marriage is a calling, that you’re (19:36) fundamentally to be single unless God calls you to marriage. I don’t think (19:40) that’s biblical. I think that’s backwards.

I think the reason that we (19:47) lean towards singleness is primarily because of our scripts, and our fear of (19:55) being involved in a sacrificial relation. There’s all kinds of things that are (19:58) playing into that, and I know that the appeal often is to the passage in (20:03) Corinthians, where Paul talks about that, but I always say let’s go back and (20:10) look at the context of that passage, and if you go back and look at it, you will (20:15) see that when Paul makes a statement, Paul is not overturning the rest of the (20:19) entirety of Scripture that God has called. When he says, it is not good for (20:24) man to be alone, Paul is not saying now that’s not true.

That is not what he’s (20:28) saying. He’s not overturning the institution of marriage and family. He’s (20:32) not doing that, but if you look at the context, he’s saying, he’s talking about (20:37) in these, what’s the word in there? Do you know, Hector? In these difficult times, (20:44) he’s talking about the difficult times.

Remember, they were about to go through (20:48) 70 AD. They were about to go through one of the most horrific periods of time, and (20:58) and Paul is talking about that, and that’s why that’s the context there. He’s not (21:04) overturning the whole thing.

Now, in light of that, however, it’s just the same (21:09) thing. Remember, I was saying that when I was teaching in the seminary, I felt like (21:14) one of my jobs was to get guys out of the seminary. Why? Because when they say, (21:19) when I say, well, why are you here? And they say, well, it’s because I love God.

(21:25) That’s a wrong answer, because you’re implying that everyone who loves God (21:31) ought to be here in seminary, you know, getting our degree and all that kind of (21:35) stuff, and that’s wrong. And so if you haven’t been called to that, then (21:42) you know, if you’re called to be a farmer, I don’t want you here. But if (21:47) you’re called to be a pastor, you better not be out farming a field, and I mean (21:54) that nominally, because Paul actually was involved in vocation, remember? He tended, (22:00) I mean, he was a tent maker, and so he maintained that location while he did (22:10) his ministry.

But his words that are there in 1st Corinthians, which is (22:21) the only place in all of Scripture where we, and isn’t it amazing how we always (22:26) gravitate, we want to pull this piece out in order to justify what we want to (22:31) do. He’s not overturning all the Scripture. What is clear is that people (22:37) can be called to singleness, and that is supported throughout the rest of the (22:44) Scripture.

And so I will say the same thing. If you’re called to singleness, (22:48) then you better not say, I do, at an altar. But we need to be sure of that (22:56) calling, and not that we pursue that.

Why? Because we would rather be in control of (23:03) our own life, and this will upset the cart even more. I have talked to (23:11) students who’ve gotten married and say, well, we’re not going to have kids. And (23:15) when we first talk about that, I get this pious response, well, you know, it’s just a (23:19) difficult world and so forth.

But the bottom line is, it’s because they don’t (23:22) want to be bothered with children. It’s their script again. And now God is the (23:27) one who brings those children, but I’m talking about the conscious decision to (23:32) say, you know, we’re not going to be fruitful in our marriage, in the (23:35) physically fruitful in our marriage.

And I say, you know, go back and look at what (23:40) is God doing here? And you better have a really good reason and (23:47) calling from God to go against that design. Does that make sense, Joel? I know (23:53) this is not well accepted, especially in our culture today. I understand that.

(23:58) I’m just saying, look, I’m going to stand by what I see here. Just thinking about, like, (24:05) how would a widow think about fruitfulness of the womb, or somebody who (24:11) struggles with infertility, for example? I know there’s options for adoption and (24:17) things like that, but how do they begin to think about this idea of being (24:22) fruitful in all three different types? Well, remember again, there are always (24:31) there are always things in a fallen world that are going to prevent us. There (24:37) are people who physically cannot have children, and this is a tough thing, (24:48) too.

We dealt with this in the cross-examination thing, and it was really (24:52) tough. People didn’t like it. Every place in the scripture that talks about a (24:57) woman being barren is in the context of God closing her womb.

Every one of them. (25:05) Are we willing to accept that from the Lord? And this was in the, remember, these (25:11) are in the shows we did where we were talking about the snowflake babies, about (25:18) people adopting those frozen embryos, and we talked about, okay, (25:25) there is a somewhere there’s a line over which you’re trying to pick against God. (25:32) You know, you can go a certain way, you can have some tests done, maybe there’s (25:36) whatever, there’s this or that, and so on and so forth, but there’s a (25:39) point at which you ought to begin to recognize, I am trying to force my script (25:44) here on that.

So there are things in a fallen world that will put (25:52) boundaries on some of the ways that we can be fruitful. I would say we (25:57) could do the same thing in terms of vocational fruitfulness. You know, some (26:01) people have limitations physically that they can’t do certain things and (26:05) so forth, and the same would be true in ministry.

We were talking also about the (26:10) notion, well, what does a single woman do here? And we talked about the, you know, (26:17) having a life group, having a group of believers to help you on that is (26:23) important, and the same is true now. The scripture is very clear in many cases (26:28) about a widow and the responsibilities of a widow to teach (26:34) others and so forth. So she may have already been fruitful physically.

If (26:42) she’s a widow, she was married, maybe the Lord allowed them to have (26:47) children, and she has produced physically, and you know, it’s just (26:53) like people who, when you get older, you don’t have children anymore. That doesn’t (26:57) mean you’re no longer fruitful. You have been fruitful, and my responsibility now (27:00) is the fruitfulness of those offspring.

You know, my children, my grandchildren. (27:07) You know, if the Lord allows, I may have great-grandchildren, and I will (27:12) have a responsibility. You know, even if the Lord allows me to be 90 (27:19) years old, I will still feel a responsibility to be part of the (27:25) fruitfulness of my great-grandchildren, and even my children.

So a widow, and I (27:34) think you’ll see this confirmed in the scripture, what is her job (27:39) is to continue to teach the younger women and so forth. So there’s a, and (27:45) this is in a family context here. This is the fruitfulness in a family.

See, the (27:49) fruitfulness in the family is not just the physical bearing of children. I mean, (27:55) that just pops them up in the world. Now, you know, you’ve got, you have a (28:00) whole lot of fruitfulness that needs to be done with Asa and with your new child.

(28:06) It’s just not just the physical thing that they’ve arrived. In fact, that’s, you (28:11) know, you know, that’s step .01 in the whole ball of wax here, right? (28:18) And you already know that. So the fruitfulness that you and Esther are (28:24) going to be bearing in Asa’s life is still yet to come.

You’ve already done it (28:34) and you’ll continue to. Does that help at all, Joel, in terms of what we’re talking about? (28:43) Okay, that’s half of the video. So I’m trying to get a transcript and summary (28:52) of this also, so that we’ll have a way to look at it.

I hope you got something out (29:02) of what they were talking about.